blocky temp readings

DMKMM
Posts: 103
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:12 pm
Location: Lincoln, NE

blocky temp readings

Postby DMKMM » Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:54 pm

Let me thank you in advance for taking the time to go over my questions.

Equipment:

DL2
DASH1
4- thermoamps
4- k-type thermocouples (high range)

I am taking 4 tempture readings, and one RPM reading.

What im after is to have a more gradual increase/decrease in the tempture readings.

I have the sample rate set at 100hz, with no averaging (i have tried adjusting this and recieved the same results)

I understand that with a longer test period the graph resolution would be more gradual. And if you zoom in close enough its all square. but what the problems is, in the 2 minute test the tempture jumps from 121.1 to 122.9, thats only a 1.8 degree tempture change. Ive had some tests that the data shows a 10-15 degree jump in change, and that is totally unacceptable.

Is there anyway to help round out these numbers, to remove the jumps in the data?

ive tried exporting the data to a spread sheet. but when the data is exported it shows the same values (with no gradual increase/decrease)


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Last edited by DMKMM on Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Turby
Posts: 296
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2005 2:28 pm

Postby Turby » Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:51 pm

I suspect its down to the resolution of the thermocouple channel. For example, take 256 possible levels of change. Over a 1000 degree range thats approx 4 deg per level. Over 100 degree range thats 0.4 deg per level.

What you need to do is to increase the sensitivity by reducing the temperature range.

What is the voltage coming from the thermocouple (I presume the signal is being amplified!) and what is the formulae you use to convert to temperature ?

DMKMM
Posts: 103
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:12 pm
Location: Lincoln, NE

Postby DMKMM » Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:59 pm

the setting im using is one of the "use a standard sensor type" on the DASH1 Config.

im using: (Thermocouple amp (-100C-+1150C) in deg Fahrenheit

the equation im using is y = +450x - 148 (-100C - +1150C)

faraday
Posts: 267
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 1:18 am

Postby faraday » Fri Apr 18, 2008 5:55 am

You haven't stated what you're trying to measure and where. A thermocouple is a useful sensor because it will cover a very wide temperature range with a simple relationship between its electrical output and temperature. The problem is that the output is too small for most electrical "gauges", hence the amplifier.
You've chosen the universal or wide range amplifier, describing it as high range. This is suitable for high temperatures as well as low, but it seems you are interested in measuring relatively low temperatures, for which R-T's other amplifier is more suitable if greater accuracy is required.

The good news is that you are using the correct settings for your measurement and logging hardware. As well, R-T will be impressed that the equipment is working to specification. Nothing that you can do in the software setup can improve your result.

I'll ignore the underlying science, but need to explain with simple logic and arithmetic:
The DL2 reads the voltage output of the amplifier with a Resolution of 3mV. The output might be 2.50051V measured with a very accurate instrument. The DL2 will read this as anywhere between 2.499V and 2.502V. Let's be conservative and say its resolution is not actually that good, but 4mV.

The Sensitivity of your amplifier is 4mV per degree C, or 9/5 times this in Fahrenheit, i.e. 4mV per 1.8 F. :wink:

The resolution of the DL2 can't accurately see a temperature change of smaller than 1.8 F with your hardware.
If you had the low range amplifier, with a Sensitivity of 16mV per degC, the DL2 could accurately read a temperature change of 4/16 x 1.8 = 0.45 F.
Would this give you sufficient resolution?

If not, rather than trying to design a more specific amplifier, I would suggest a different sensor technology. However, this needs to be application specific.

It stands to reason that a sensor good for a huge range is inappropriate for resolving fractional changes. Just because you might see a digital display with three decimal places and numbers rolling doesn't mean that a snapshot or even an average of those numbers is a true value.

The science behind why this lack of resolution appears as a jump is well understood by measurement scientists, but harder to explain. The issue is not time related. Your amplifier and logger can respond to changes in the small voltage change in the sensor far faster than the sensor can change its temperature.
The thermocouple will respond faster than most other easily obtained sensors, but if you're trying to determine a rapidly changing air temperature, it will be applying its own smoothing to the measurement.

I am not sure what you mean by 10-15 degree jump. This has to happen over a certain period of time. If we have the sampling rate at 100Hz, the period for what appears to be an instantaneous change, or jump in my language, is 10 milliseconds. The thermocouple would have to be thrust into a hot flame to give a "jump" of your unacceptable magnitude.

Over what minimum time do you need or expect to see a change?
Is the problem that the data changes too quickly or not quickly enough?

The smoothing function in the Variable Manager will not take out many of the steps because the thermocouple is slow to respond in relation to the sample rate so there are numerous adjacent values tied to the same value because of the lack of resolution.

Where did you buy the thermocouples and amplifiers?


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